Hon Robert Yates - Notes of the Secret Debates of the Federal Convention of 1787 (Week 4) lyrics

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 20TH, 1787. Met pursuant to adjournment. Present 11 States. Judge ELSWORTH. I propose, and therefore move, to expunge the word national, in the first resolve, and to place in the room of it, government of the United States-which was agreed to, nem. con. Mr Lansing then moved, that the first resolve be postponed, in order to take into consideration the following: That the powers of legislation ought to be vested in the United States in congress. I am clearly of opinion that I am not authorized to accede to a system which will annihilate the State governments and the Virginia plan is declarative of such extinction. It has been a**erted that the public mind is not known. To some points it may be true, but we may collect from the fate of the requisition of the impost, what it may be on the principles of a national government. - When many of the States were so tenacious of their rights on this point, can we expect that thirteen States will surrender their governments up to a national plan? Rhode Island pointedly refused granting it. Certainly she had a federal right so to do; and I hold it as an undoubted truth, as long as State distinctions remain, let the national government be modified as you please, both branches of your legislature will be impressed with local and State attachments. The Virginia plan proposes a negative on the State laws where, in the opinion of the national legislature, they contravene the national government: and no State Laws can pa** unless approved by them. -They will have more than a law in a day to revise; and are they competent to judge of the wants and necessities of remote States? This national government will, from their power, have great influence in the State governments; and the existence of the latter are only saved in appearance. And has it not been a**erted that they expect their extinction? If this be the object, let us say so, and extinguish them at once. But remember, if we devise a system of government which will not meet the approbation of our constituents, we are dissolving the union-but if we act within the limits of our power, it will be approved of; and should it upon experiment prove defective, the people will entrust a future convention again to amend it. Fond as many are of a general government, do any of you believe it can pervade the whole continent so effectually as to secure the peace, harmony, and happiness of the whole? The excellence of the British model of government has been much insisted on; but we are endeavoring to complicate it with State governments, on principles which will gradually destroy the one or the other. You are sowing the seeds of rivalship, which must at last end in ruin. Mr. MASON. The material difference between the two plans has already been clearly pointed out. The objection to that of Virginia arises from the want of power to institute it, and the want of practicability to carry it into effect. Will the first objection apply to a power merely recommendatory? In certain seasons of public danger it is commendable to exceed power. The treaty of peace, under which we now enjoy the blessings of freedom, was made by persons who exceeded their powers. It met the approbation of the public, and thus deserved the praises of these who sent them. The impracticability of the plan is still less groundless. These measures are supported by one who, at his time of life, has little to hope or expect from any government. Let me ask, will the people entrust their dearest rights and liberties to the determination of one body of men, and those not chosen by them, and who are invested both with the sword and purse? They never will-they never can-to a conclave, transacting their business secret from the eye of the public. Do we not discover by their public journals of the years 1778-9, and 1780, that factions and party spirit had guided many of their acts? The people of America, like all other people, are unsettled in their minds, and their principles fixed to no object, except that a republican government is the best, and that the legislature ought to consist of two branches. The constitutions of the respective States, made and approved of by them, evince this principle. Congress, however, from other causes, received a different organization. What, would you use military force to compel the observance of a social compact? It is destructive to the rights of the people. Do you expect the militia will do it, or do you mean a standing army? The first will never, on such an occasion, exert any power; and the latter may turn its arm against the government which employs them. I never will consent to destroy State governments, and will ever be as careful to preserve the one as the other. If we should, in the formation of the latter, have omitted some necessary regulation, I will trust my posterity to amend it. That the one government will be productive of disputes and jealousies against the other, I believe; but it will produce mutual safety, I shall close with observing, that though some gentlemen have expressed much warmth on this and former occasions, I can excuse it, as the result of sudden pa**ion; and hope that although we may differ in some particular points, if we mean the good of the whole, that our good sense upon reflection, will prevent us from spreading our discontent further. Mr. MARTIN. I know that government must be supported; and if the one was incompatible with the other, I would support the State government at the expense of the union-for I consider the present system as a system of slavery. Impressed with this idea, I made use on a former occasion, of expressions perhaps rather harsh. If gentlemen conceive that the legislative branch is dangerous, divide them into two. They are as much the representatives of the States, as the State a**emblies are the representatives of the people. Are not the powers which we here exercise given by the legislatures? [After giving a detail of the revolution and of State governments, Mr. M. continued.] I confess when the confederation was made, congress ought to have been invested with more extensive powers; but when the States saw that congress indirectly aimed at sovereignty, they were jealous, and therefore refused any farther concessions. The time is now come that we can constitutionally grant them not only new powers, but to modify their government, so that the State governments are not endangered. But whatever we have now in our power to grant, the grant is a State grant, and therefore it must be so organized that the State governments are interested in supporting the union. Thus systematized, there can be no danger if a small force is maintained. Mr. SHERMAN. We have found during the war that though congress consisted of but one branch, it was that body which carried us through the whole war, and we were crowned with success. We closed the war, performing all the functions of a good government, by making a beneficial peace. But the great difficulty now is, how we shall pay the public debt incurred during that war. The unwillingness of the States to comply with the requisitions of congress, has embarra**ed us greatly. -But to amend these defects in government I am not fond of speculation. I would rather proceed on experimental ground. We can so modify the powers of congress, that we will all be mutual supporters of one another. The disparity of the States can be no difficulty. We know this by experience-Virginia and Ma**achusetts were the first who unanimously ratified the old confederation. They then had no claim to more votes in congress than one. -Foreign States have made treaties with us as confederated States, not as a national government. Suppose we put an end to that government under which those treaties were made, will not these treaties be void? Mr. WILSON. The question before us may admit of the three following considerations: 1. Whether the legislature shall consist of one or two branches. 2. Whether they are to be elected by the State governments or by the people. 3. Whether in proportion to State importance, or States individually. Confederations are usually of a short date. The amphyctionic council was instituted in the infancy of the Grecian republics-as those grew in strength, the council lost its weight and power. The Achaean league met the same fate- Switzerland and Holland are supported in their confederation, not by its intrinsic merit, but the incumbent pressure of surrounding bodies. Germany is kept together by the house of Austria. True, congress carried us through the war even against its own weakness. That powers were wanting, you Mr. President, must have felt. To other causes, not to congress, must the success be ascribed. That the great States acceded to the confederation, and that they in the hour of danger, made a sacrifice of their interest to the lesser States is true. Like the wisdom of Solomon in adjudging the child to its true mother, from tenderness to it, the greater States well knew that the loss of a limb was fatal to the confederation-they too, through tenderness, sacrificed their dearest rights to preserve the whole. But the time is come, when justice will be done to their claims-Situations are altered. Congress have frequently made their appeal to the people. I wish they had always done it-the national government would have been sooner extricated. Question then put on Mr. Lansing's motion and lost. -6 States against 4-one divided. New York in the minority. Adjourned till to-morrow morning. THURSDAY, JUNE 21ST, 1787. Met pursuant to adjournment. Present 11 States. Dr. JOHNSON-It appears to me that the Jersey plan has for its principal object, the preservation of the State governments. So far it is a departure from the plan of Virginia, which although it concentres in a distinct national government, it is not totally independent of that of the States. A gentleman from New York, with boldness and decision, proposed a system totally different from both; and though he has been praised by every body, he has been supported by none. How can the State governments be secured on the Virginia plan? I could have wished, that the supporters of the Jersey system could have satisfied themselves with the principles of the Virginia plan, and that the individuality of the States could be supported. It is agreed on all hands that a portion of government is to be left to the States. How can this be done? It can be done by joining the States in their legislative capacity with the right of appointing the second branch of the national legislature, to represent the States individually. Mr. WILSON. If security is necessary to preserve the one, it is equally so to preserve the other. How can the national government be secured against the States? Some regulation is necessary. Suppose the national government had a component number in the State legislature? But where the one government clashed with the other, the State government ought to yield, as the preservation of the general interest must be preferred to a particular. But let us try to designate the powers of each, and then no danger can be apprehended, nor can the general government be possessed of any ambitious views to encroach on the State rights. Mr. MADISON. I could have wished that the gentleman from Connecticut had more accurately marked his objections to the Virginia plan. I apprehend the greatest danger is from the encroachment of the States on the national government-This apprehension is justly founded on the experience of ancient confederacies, and our own is a proof of it. The right of negativing in certain instances the State laws, affords one security to the national government. But is the danger well founded? Have any State governments ever encroached on the corporate rights of cities? And if it was the case that the national government usurped the State government, if such usurpation was for the good of the whole, no mischief could arise. -To draw the line between the two, is a difficult task. I believe it cannot be done, and therefore I am inclined for a general government. If we cannot form a general government, and the States become totally independent of each other, it would afford a melancholy prospect. The 2d resolve was then put and carried-7 States for-3 against-one divided. New York in the minority. The 3d resolve was then taken into consideration by the convention. Mr. PINKNEY. I move that the members of the first branch be appointed in such manner as the several State legislatures shall direct, instead of the mode reported. If this motion is not agreed to, the other will operate with great difficulty, if not injustice-If you make district elections and join, as I presume you must, many counties in one district, the largest county will carry the election as its united influence will give a decided majority in its favor. Mr. MADISON. I oppose the motion-there are difficulties, but they may be obviated in the details connected with the subject. Mr. HAMILTON. It is essential to the democratic rights of the community, that this branch be directly elected by the people. Let us look forward to probable events-There may be a time when State legislatures may cease, and such an event ought not to embarra** the national government. Mr. MASON. I am for preserving inviolably the democratic branch of the government-True, we have found inconveniencies from pure democracies; but if we mean to preserve peace and real freedom, they must necessarily become a component part of a national government. Change this necessary principle, and if the government proceeds to taxation, the States will oppose your powers. Mr. Sherman thought that an amendment to the proposed amendment is necessary. Gov. RUTLEDGE. It is said that an election by representatives is not an election by the people. This proposition is not correct. What is done by my order is done by myself. I am convinced that the mode of election by legislatures will be more refined, and better men will be sent. Mr. WILSON. The legislature of the States by the proposed motion will have an uncontrolable sway over the general government. Election is the exercise of original sovereignty in the people-but if by representatives, it is only relative sovereignty. Mr. KING. The magistrates of the States will ever pursue schemes of their own, and this, on the proposed motion, will pervade the national government-and we know the State governments will be ever hostile to the general government. Mr. PINKNEY. All the reasoning of the gentlemen opposed to my motion has not convinced me of its impropriety. There is an esprit de corps which has made heretofore every unfederal member of congress, after his election, become strictly federal, and this I presume will ever be the case in whatever manner they may be elected. Question put on Mr. Pinkney's motion and carried by 6 States against 4-one divided. Question then put on the resolve-9 States for-1 against-one divided. Gov. RANDOLPH. I move that in the resolve for the duration of the first branch of the general legislature, the word three be expunged, and the words two years be inserted. Mr. DICKINSON. I am against the amendment. I propose that the word three shall remain, but that they shall be removable annually in cla**es. Mr. SHERMAN. I am for one year. Our people are accustomed to annual elections. Should the members have a longer duration of service, and remain at the seat of government, they may forget their constituents, and perhaps imbibe the interest of the State in which they reside, or there may be danger of catching the esprit de corps. Mr. MASON. I am for two years. One year is too short. -In extensive States four months may elapse before the returns can be known. Hence the danger of their remaining too long unrepresented. Mr. HAMILTON. There is a medium in every thing. I confess three years is not too long-A representative ought to have full freedom of deliberation, and ought to exert an opinion of his own. I am convinced that the public mind will adopt a solid plan-The government of New York, although higher toned than that of any other State, still we find great listlessness and indifference in the electors; nor do they in general bring forward the first characters to the legislature. The public mind is perhaps not now ready to receive the best plan of government, but certain circumstances are now progressing which will give a different complexion to it. Two years duration agreed to. Adjourned till to-morrow morning. FRIDAY JUNE 22D, 1787. Met pursuant to adjournment. The clause of the 3d resolve, respecting the stipends, taken into consideration. Judge ELSWORTH. I object to this clause. I think the State legislatures ought to provide for the members of the general legislature, and as each State will have a proportionate number, it will not be burdensome to the smaller States. I therefore move to strike out the clause. Mr. GORHAM. If we intend to fix the stipend, it may be an objection against the system, as the States would never adopt it. I join in sentiment to strike out the whole. Gov. RANDOLPH. I am against the motion. Are the members to be paid? Certainly-We have no sufficient fortunes to induce gentlemen to attend for nothing. If the State legislatures pay the members of the national council, they will control the members, and compel them to pursue State measures. I confess the payment will not operate impartially, but the members must be paid, and be made easy in their circumstances. Will they attend the service of the public without being paid? Mr. SHERMAN. The States ought to pay their members; and I judge of the approbation of the people on matters of government by what I suppose they will approve. Mr. WILSON. I am against going as far as the resolve. If, however, it is intended to throw the national legislature into the hand of the States, I shall be against it. It is possible the States may become unfederal, and they may then shake the national government. The members ought to be paid out of the national treasury. Mr. MADISON. Our attention is too much confined to the present moment, when our regulations are intended to be perpetual. Our national government must operate for the good of the whole, and the people must have a general interest in its support; but if you make its legislators subject to and at the mercy of the State governments, you ruin the fabric-and whatever new States may be added to the general government the expense will be equally borne. Mr. HAMILTON. I do not think the States ought to pay the members, nor am I for a fixed sum. It is a general remark, that he who pays is the master. If each State pays its own members, the burden would be disproportionate, according to the distance of the States from the seat of government. If a national government can exist, members will make it a desirable object to attend, without accepting any stipend-and it ought to be so organized as to be efficient. Mr. WILSON. I move that the stipend be ascertained by the legislature, and paid out of the national treasury. Mr. MADISON. I oppose this motion. Members are too much interested in the question. Besides, it is indecent that the legislature should put their hands in the public purse to convey it into their own. Question put on Mr. Wilson's motion and negatived-7 States against-2 for, and 2 divided. Mr. Mason moved to change the phraseology of the resolve, that is to say, to receive an adequate compensation for their services, and to be paid out of the treasury. This motion was agreed to. Mr. RUTLEDGE. I move that the question be taken on these words, to be paid out of the national treasury. Mr. HAMILTON. It has been often a**erted, that the interests of the general and of the State legislatures are precisely the same. This cannot be true. The views of the governed are often materially different from those who govern. The science of policy is the knowledge of human nature. A State government will ever be the rival power of the general government. It is therefore highly improper that the State legislatures should be the paymasters of the members of the national government. All political bodies love power, and it will often be improperly attained. Judge ELSWORTH. If we are so exceedingly jealous of State legislatures, will they not have reason to be equally jealous of us? If I return to my State and tell them, we made such and such regulations for a general government, because we dared not trust you with any extensive powers, will they be satisfied? nay, will they adopt your government? and let it ever be remembered, that without their approbation your government is nothing more than a rope of sand. Mr. WILSON. I am not for submitting the national government to the approbation of the State legislatures. I know that they and the State officers will oppose it. I am for carrying it to the people of each State. Mr. Rutledge's motion was then put-4 States for the clause-5 against-2 divided. New York divided. The clause, to be ineligible to any office, &c., came next to be considered. Mr. Mason moved that after the words, two years, be added, and to be of the age of 25 years. Question put and agreed to-7 ayes-3 noes. New York divided. Mr. GORHAM. I move that after the words, and under the national government for one year after its expiraton, be struck out. Mr. King for the motion. It is impossible to carry the system of exclusion so far; and in this instance we refine too much by going to utopian lengths. It is a mere cobweb. Mr. BUTLER. We have no way of judging of mankind but by experience. Look at the history of the government of Great Britain, where there is a very flimsy exclusion-Does it not ruin their government? A man takes a seat in parliament to get an office for himself or friends, or both; and this is the great source from which flows its great venality and corruption. Mr. WILSON. I am for striking out the words moved for. Strong reasons must induce me to disqualify a good man from office. If you do, you give an opportunity to the dependent or avaricious man to fill it up, for to them offices are objects of desire. If we admit there may be cabal and intrigue between the executive and legislative bodies, the exclusion of one year will not prevent the effects of it. But we ought to hold forth every honorable inducement for men of abilities to enter the service of the public. -This is truly a republican princi le. Shall talents, which entitle a man to public reward, operate as a punishment? While a member of the legislature, he ought to be excluded from any other office, but no longer. Suppose a war breaks out, and a number of your best military characters were members; must we lose the benefit of their services? Had this been the case in the beginning of the war, what would have been our situation? -and what has happened may happen again. Mr. MADISON. Some gentlemen give too much weight, and others too little to this subject. If you have no exclusive clause, there may be danger of creating officers or augmenting the stipends of those already created, in order to gratify some members if they were not excluded. Such an instance has fallen within my own observation. I am therefore of opinion, that no office ought to be open to a member, which may be created or augmented while he is in the legislature. Mr. MASON. It seems as if it was taken for granted, that all offices will be filled by the executive, while I think many will remain in the gift of the legislature. In either case, it is necessary to shut the door against corruption. If otherwise, they may make or multiply offices, in order to fill them. Are gentlemen in earnest when they suppose that this exclusion will prevent the first characters from coming forward? Are we not struck at seeing the luxury and venality which has already crept in among us? If not checked, we shall have amba**adors to every petty state in Europe-the little republic of St. Marino not excepted. We must, in the present system, remove the temptation. I admire many parts of the British constitution and government, but I detest their corruption. -Why has the power of the crown so remarkably increased the last century? A stranger, by reading their laws, would suppose it considerably diminished; and yet, by the sole power of appointing the increased officers of government, corruption pervades every town and village in the kingdom. If such a restriction should abridge the right of election, it is still necessary, as it will prevent the people from ruining themselves; and will not the same causes here produce the same effects? I consider this clause as the corner-stone on which our liberties depend-and if we strike it out we are erecting a fabric for our destruction. Mr. GORHAM. The corruption of the English government cannot be applied to America. This evil exists there in the venality of their boroughs: but even this corruption has its advantage, as it gives stability to their government. We do not know what the effect would be if members of parliament were excluded from offices. The great bulwark of our liberty is the frequency of elections, and their great danger is the septennial parliaments. Mr. HAMILTON. In all general questions which become the subjects of discussion, there are always some truths mixed with falsehoods. I confess there is danger where men are capable of holding two offices. Take mankind in general, they are vicious-their pa**ions may be operated upon. We have been taught to reprobate the danger of influence in the British government, without duly reflecting how far it was necessary to support a good government. We have taken up many ideas upon trust, and at last, pleased with our own opinions, establish them as undoubted truths. Hume's opinion of the British constitution confirms the remark, that there is always a body of firm patriots, who often shake a corrupt administration. Take mankind as they are, and what are they governed by? Their pa**ions. There may be in every government a few choice spirits, who may act from more worthy motives. One great error is that we suppose mankind more honest than they are. Our prevailing pa**ions are ambition and interest; and it will ever be the duty of a wise government to avail itself of those pa**ions, in order to make them subservient to the public good-for these ever induce us to action. Perhaps a few men in a state may, from patriotic motives, or to display their talents, or to reap the advantage of public applause, step forward; but if we adopt the clause we destroy the motive. I am, therefore, against all exclusions and refinements, except only in this case; that when a member takes his seat, he should vacate every other office. It is difficult to put any exclusive regulation into effect. We must, in some degree, submit to the inconvenience. The question was then put for striking out-4 ayes-4 noes-3 States divided. New York of the number. Adjourned till to-morrow morning. SATURDAY JUNE 23D, 1787. Met pursuant to adjournment. Present 11 States. Mr. GORHAM. I move that the question which was yesterday proposed on the clause, to be paid out of the national treasury, be now put. Question put-5 ayes-5 noes-one State divided. So the clause was lost. Mr. Pinkney moved that that part of the clause which disqualifies a person from holding an office in the State, be expunged, because the first and best characters in a State may thereby be deprived of a seat in the national council. Mr. WILSON. I perceive that some gentlemen are of opinion to give a bias in favor of State governments-This question ought to stand on the same footing. Mr. SHERMAN. By the conduct of some gentlemen, we are erecting a kingdom to act against itself. The legislature ought to be free and unbia**ed. Question put to strike out the words moved for, and carried-8 ayes-3 noes. Mr. Madison then moved, that after the word established, be added, or the emoluments whereof shall have been augmented by the legislature of the United States, during the time they were members thereof, and for one year thereafter. Mr. BUTLER. The proposed amendment does not go far enough. How easily may this be evaded. What was the conduct of George the second to support the pragmatic sanction? To some of the opposers he gave pensions-others offices, and some, to put them out of the house of commons, he made lords. The great Montesquieu says, it is unwise to entrust persons with power, which by being abused operates to the advantage of those entrusted with it. Governor Rutledge was against the proposed amendment. No person ought to come to the legislature with an eye to his own emolument in any shape. Mr. MASON. I differ from my colleague in his proposed amendment. Let me state the practice in the State where we came from. There, all officers are appointed by the legislature. Need I add, that many of their appointments are most shameful. Nor will the check proposed by this amendment be sufficient. It will soon cease to be any check at all. It is a**erted that it will be very difficult to find men sufficiently qualified as legislators without the inducement of emolument. I do believe that men of genius will be deterred unless possessed of great virtues. We may well dispense with the first characters when destitute of virtue-I should wish them never to come forward- But if we do not provide against corruption, our government will soon be at an end: nor would I wish to put a man of virtue in the way of temptation. Evasions and caballing would evade the amendment. Nor would the danger be less, if the executive has the appointment of officers. The first three or four years we might go on well enough; but what would be the case afterwards? I will add, that such a government ought to be refused by the people-and it will be refused. Mr. MADISON. My wish is that the national legislature be as uncorrupt as possible. I believe all public bodies are inclined, from various motives, to support its members; but it is not always done from the base motives of venality. Friendship, and a knowledge of the abilities of those with whom they a**ociate, may produce it. If you bar the door against such attachments, you deprive the government of its greatest strength and support. Can you always rely on the patriotism of the members? If this be the only inducement, you will find a great indifferency in filling your legislative body. If we expect to call forth useful characters, we must hold out allurements; nor can any great inconveniency arise from such inducements. The legislative body must be the road to public honor; and the advantage will be greater to adopt my motion, than any possible inconvenience. Mr. KING. The intimate a**ociation of offices will produce a vigorous support to your government. To check it would produce no good consequences. Suppose connections are formed? Do they not all tend to strengthen the government under which they are formed? Let therefore preferment be open to all men. We refine otherwise too much-nor is it possible we can eradicate the evil. Mr. WILSON. I hope the amendment will be adopted. -By the last vote it appears that the convention have no apprehension of danger of State appointments. It is equally imaginary to apprehend any from the national government. That such officers will have influence in the legislature, I readily admit; but I would not therefore exclude them. If any ill effects were to result from it, the bargain can as well be made with the legislature as with the executive. We ought not to shut the door of promotion against the great characters in the public councils, from being rewarded by being promoted. If otherwise, will not these gentlemen be put in the legislatures to prevent them from holding offices, by those who wish to enjoy them themselves? Mr. SHERMAN. If we agree to this amendment, our good intentions may be prostrated by changing offices to avoid or evade the rule. Mr. GERRY. This amendment is of great weight, and its consequences ought to be well considered. At the beginning of the war we possessed more than Roman virtue. It appears to me it is now the reverse. We have more land and stock- jobbers than any place on earth. -It appears to me, that we have constantly endeavored to keep distinct the three great branches of government; but if we agree to this motion, it must be destroyed by admitting the legislators to share in the executive, or to be too much influenced by the executive, in looking up to him for offices. Mr. MADISON. This question is certainly of much moment. There are great advantages in appointing such persons as are known. The choice otherwise will be chance. How will it operate on the members themselves? Will it not be an objection to become members when they are to be excluded from office? For these reasons I am for the amendment. Mr. BUTLER. These reasons have no force. Characters fit for offices will always be known. Mr. MASON. It is said it is necessary to open the door to induce gentlemen to come into the legislature. This door is open, but not immediately. A seat in the house will be the field to exert talents, and when to a good purpose, they will in due time be rewarded. Mr. JENIFER. Our senators are appointed for 5 years and they can hold no other office. This circumstance gives them the greatest confidence of the people. The question was put on Mr. Madison's amendment, and lost-8 noes-2 ayes-one State divided. Question on the clause as amended before. Carried-8 ayes-2 noes-one State divided. The question was next on the latter part of the clause. Mr. MASON. We must retain this clause, otherwise evasions may be made. The legislature may admit of resignations and thus make members eligible-places may be promised at the close of their duration, and that a dependency may be made. Mr. GERRY. And this actually has been the case in congress-a member resigned to obtain an appointment, and had it failed he would have resumed it. Mr. HAMILTON. The clause may be evaded many ways. Offices may be held by proxy-they may be procured by friends, &c. Mr. RUTLEDGE. I admit, in some cases, it may be evaded; but this is no argument against shutting the door as close as possible. The question was then put on this clause, to wit: and for the space of one year after its expiration-and negatived. Then adjourned to Monday morning. MONDAY, JUNE 25TH, 1787. Met pursuant to adjournment. Present 11 States. Mr. C. PINKNEY. On the question upon the second branch of the general legislature, as reported by the committee in the fourth resolve, now under consideration, it will be necessary to inquire into the true situation of the people of this country. Without this we can form no adequate idea what kind of government will secure their rights and liberties. There is more equality of rank and fortune in America than in any other country under the sun; and this is likely to continue as long as the unappropriated western lands remain unsettled. They are equal in rights, nor is extreme of poverty to be seen in any part of the union. If we are thus singularly situated, both as to fortune and rights, it evidently follows, that we cannot draw any useful lessons from the examples of any of the European states or kingdoms; much less can Great Britain afford us any striking institution, which can be adapted to our own situation-unless we indeed intend to establish an hereditary executive, or one for life. Great Britain drew its first rude institutions from the forests of Germany, and with it that of its nobility. These having originally in their hands the property of the State, the crown of Great Britain was obliged to yield to the claims of power which those large possessions enabled them to a**ert. The commons were then too contemptible to form part of the national councils. Many parliaments were held, without their being represented until in process of time, under the protection of the crown, and forming distinct communities, they obtained some weight in the British government. From such discordant materials brought casually together, those admirable checks and balances, now so much the boast of the British constitution, took their rise. -But will we be able to copy from this original? I do not suppose that in the confederation, there are one hundred gentlemen of sufficient fortunes to establish a nobility; and the equality of others as to rank would never admit of the distinctions of nobility. I lay it therefore down as a settled principle, that equality of condition is a leading axiom in our government. It may be said we must necessarily establish checks, lest one rank of people should usurp the rights of another. Commerce can never interfere with the government, nor give a complexion to its councils. Can we copy from Greece or Rome? Have we their nobles or patricians? With them offices were open to few- The different ranks in the community formed opposite interests and produced unceasing struggles and disputes. Can this apply equally to the free yeomanry of America? We surely differ from the whole. Our situation is unexampled, and it is in our power, on different grounds, to secure civil and religious liberty; and when we secure these we secure every thing that is necessary to establish happiness. We cannot pretend to rival the European nations in their grandeur or power; nor is the situation of any two nations so exactly alike as that the one can adopt the regulations or government of the other. If we have any distinctions thay may be divided into three cla**es. 1. Professional men. 2. Commercial men. 3. The landed interest. The latter is the governing power of America, and the other two must ever be dependent on them-Will a national government suit them? No. The three orders have necessarily a mixed interest, and in that view, I repeat it again, the United States of America compose in fact but one order. The clergy and nobility of Great Britain can never be adopted by us. Our government must be made suitable to the people, and we are perhaps the only people in the world who ever had sense enough to appoint delegates to establish a general government. I believe that the propositions from Virginia, with some amendments, will satisfy the people. But a general government must not be made dependent on the State governments. The United States include a territory of about 1500 miles in length, and in breadth about 400; the whole of which is divided into States and districts. While we were dependent on the crown of Great Britain, it was in contemplation to have formed the whole into one-but it was found impracticable. No legislature could make good laws for the whole, nor can it now be done. It would necessarily place the power in the hands of the few, nearest the seat of government. State governments must therefore remain, if you mean to prevent confusion. The general negative powers will support the general government. Upon these considerations I am led to form the second branch differently from the report. Their powers are important and the number not too large, upon the principle of proportion. I have considered the subject with great attention: and I propose this plan (reads it) and if no better plan is proposed, I will then move its adoption. Mr. Randolph moved that the 4th resolve be divided, in the same manner as the 3d resolve. Mr. Gorham moved the question on the first resolve. -Sixteen members from one State will certainly have greater weight, than the same number of members from different States. We must therefore depart from this rule of apportionment in some shape or other-perhaps on the plan Mr. Pinkney has suggested. Mr. READ. Some gentlemen argue, that the representation must be determined according to the weight of each State-That we have heretofore been partners in trade, in which we all put in our respective proportions of stock-That the articles of our co-partnership were drawn in forming the confederation-And that before we make a new co-partnership, we must first settle the old business. But to drop the allusion-we find that the great States have appropriated to themselves the common lands in their respective States-These lands having been forfeited as heretofore belonging to the king, ought to be applied to the discharge of our public debts. -Let this still be done, and then if you please, proportion the representation, and we shall not be jealous of one another-A jealousy, in a great measure, owing to the public property appropriated by individual States-and which, as it has been gained by the united power of the confederation, ought to be appropriated to the discharge of the public debts. Mr. GORHAM. This motion has been agitated often in congress; and it was owing to the want of power, rather than inclination, that it was not justly settled. Great surrenders have been made by the great States, for the benefit of the confederation. Mr. WILSON. The question now before us is, whether the second branch of the general legislature shall or shall not be appointed by the State legislatures. In every point of view it is an important question. The magnitude of the object is indeed embarra**ing. The great system of Henry the IV of France, aided by the greatest statesmen, is small when compared to the fabric we are now about to erect-In laying the stone amiss we may injure the superstructure; and what will be the consequence, if the corner-stone should be loosely placed? It is improper that the State legislatures should have the power contemplated to be given them. A citizen of America may be considered in two points of view-as a citizen of the general government, and as a citizen of the particular State in which he may reside. We ought to consider in what character he acts in forming a general government. I am both a citizen of Pennsylvania and of the United States. I must therefore lay aside my State connections and act for the general good of the whole. -We must forget our local habits and attachments. The general government should not depend on the State governments. This ought to be a leading distinction between the one and the other; nor ought the general government to be composed of an a**emblage of different State governments-We have unanimously agreed to establish a general government-That the powers of peace, war, treaties, coinage and regulating of commerce, ought to reside in that government. And if we reason in this manner, we shall soon see the impropriety of admitting the interference of State governments into the general government. Equality of representation can not be established, if the second branch is elected by the State legislatures. When we are laying the foundation of a building, which is to last for ages, and in which millions are interested, it ought to be well laid. If the national government does not act upon State prejudices, State distinctions will be lost. I therefore move, that the second branch of the legislature of the national government be elected by electors chosen by the people of the United States. Judge ELSWORTH. I think the second branch of the general legislature ought to be elected agreeable to the report. The other way, it is said, will be more the choice of the people-The one mode is as much so as the other. No doubt every citizen of every State is interested in the State governments; and elect him in whatever manner you please, whenever he takes a seat in the general government, it will prevail in some shape or other. The State legislatures are more competent to make a judicious choice, than the people at large. Instability pervades their choice. In the second branch of the general government we want wisdom and firmness. As to balances, where nothing can be balanced, it is a perfect utopian scheme. But still greater advantages will result in having a second branch endowed with the qualifications I have mentioned. Their weight and wisdom may check the inconsiderate and hasty proceedings of the first branch. I cannot see the force of the reasoning in attempting to detach the State governments from the general government. In that case, without a standing army, you cannot support the general government, but on the pillars of the State governments. Are the larger States now more energetic than the smaller? Ma**achusetts cannot support a government at the distance of one hundred miles from her capital, without an army; and how long Virginia and Pennsylvania will support their governments it is difficult to say. Shall we proceed like unskilful workmen, and make use of timber, which is too weak to build a first rate ship? We know that the people of the States are strongly attached to their own constitutions. If you hold up a system of general government, destructive of their constitutional rights, they will oppose it. Some are of opinion that if we cannot form a general government so as to destroy State governments, we ought at least to balance the one against the other. On the contrary, the only chance we have to support a general government is to graft it on the State governments. I want to proceed on this ground, as the safest, and I believe no other plan is practicable. In this way, and in this way only, can we rely on the confidence and support of the people. Dr. JOHNSON. The State governments must be preserved: but this motion leaves them at the will and pleasure of the general government. Mr. MADISON. I find great differences of opinion in this convention on the clause now under consideration. Let us postpone it in order to take up the 8th resolve, that we may previously determine the mode of representation. Mr. MASON. All agree that a more efficient government is necessary. It is equally necessary to preserve the State governments, as they ought to have the means of self-defence. On the motion of Mr. Wilson, the only means they ought to have would be destroyed. The question was put for postponing, in order to take into consideration the 8th resolve, and lost-7 noes-4 ayes. Question on the 1st clause in the 4th resolve-9 States for-2 against it. The age of the senators (30 years) agreed to. Mr. Gorham proposed that the senators be cla**ed, and to remain 4 years in office; otherwise great inconveniences may arise if a dissolution should take place at once. Governor RANDOLPH. This body must act with firmness. They may possibly always sit-perhaps to aid the executive. The State governments will always attempt to counteract the general government. They ought to go out in cla**es; therefore I move, that they go out of office in fixed proportions of time, instead of the words, seven years. Mr. Read moved (though not seconded) that they ought to continue in office during good behaviour. Mr. Williamson moved that they remain in office for six years. Mr. PINKNEY. I am for four years. Longer time would give them too great attachment to the States where the general government may reside. They may be induced, from the proposed length of time, to sell their estates, and become inhabitants near the seat of government. Mr. MADISON. We are proceeding in the same manner that was done when the confederation was first formed. Its original draft was excellent, but in its progress and completion it became so insufficient as to give rise to the present convention. By the vote already taken, will not the temper of the State legislatures transfuse itself into the senate? Do we create a free government? Question on Governor Randolph's motion-7 ayes-3 noes-one divided. Motion to fix the term of service at six years-5 ayes-5 noes-one divided. Do. for 5 years-5 ayes-5 noes-one divided. The question for 4 years was not put; and the convention adjourned till to- morrow morning. TUESDAY JUNE 26TH, 1787. Met pursuant to adjournment. Present 11 States. Mr. GORHAM. My motion for 4 years' continuance, was not put yesterday. I am still of opinion that cla**es will be necessary, but I would alter the time. I therefore move that the senators be elected for 6 years, and that the rotation be triennial. Mr. PINKNEY. I oppose the time, because of too long a continuance. The members will by this means be too long separated from their constituents, and will imbibe attachments different from that of the State; nor is there any danger that members, by a shorter duration of office, will not support the interest of the union, or that the States will oppose the general interest. The State of South Carolina was never opposed in principle to congress, nor thwarted their views in any case, except in the requisition of money, and then only for want of power to comply-for it was found there was not money enough in the State to pay their requisition. Mr. Read moved that the term of nine years be inserted, in triennial rotation. Mr. MADISON. We are now to determine whether the republican form shall be the basis of our government. -I admit there is weight in the objection of the gentleman from South Carolina; but no plan can steer clear of objections. That great powers are to be given, there is no doubt; and that those powers may be abused is equally true. It is also probable that members may lose their attachments to the States which sent them-Yet the first branch will control them in many of their abuses. But we are now forming a body on whose wisdom we mean to rely, and their permanency in office secures a proper field in which they may exert their firmness and knowledge. Democratic communities may be unsteady, and be led to action by the impulse of the moment. -Like individuals, they may be sensible of their own weakness, and may desire the counsels and checks of friends to guard them against the turbulency and weakness of unruly pa**ions. Such are the various pursuits of this life, that in all civilized countries, the interest of a community will be divided. There will be debtors and creditors, and an unequal possession of property, and hence arises different views and different objects in government. This indeed is the ground-work of aristocracy; and we find it blended in every government, both ancient and modern. Even where titles have survived property, we discover the noble beggar haughty and a**uming. The man who is possessed of wealth, who lolls on his sofa, or rolls in his carriage, cannot judge of the wants or feelings of the day laborer. The government we mean to erect is intended to last for ages. The landed interest, at present, is prevalent; but in process of time, when we approximate to the states and kingdoms of Europe; when the number of landholders shall be comparatively small, through the various means of trade and manufactures, will not the landed interest be overbalanced in future elections, and unless wisely provided against, what will become of your government? In England, at this day, if elections were open to all cla**es of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be jsut, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability. Various have been the propositions; but my opinion is, the longer they continue in office, the better will these views be answered. Mr. SHERMAN. The two objects of this body are permanency and safety to those who are to be governed. A bad government is the worse for being long. Frequent elections give security and even permanency. In Connecticut we have existed 132 years under an annual government; and as long as a man behaves himself well, he is never turned out of office. Four years to the senate is quite sufficient when you add to it the rotation proposed. Mr. HAMILTON. This question has already been considered in several points of view. We are now forming a republican government. Real liberty is neither found in despotism or the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. Those who mean to form a solid republican government, ought to proceed to the confines of another government. As long as offices are open to all men, and no constitutional rank is established, it is pure republicanism. But if we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy. The difference of property is already great amongst us. Commerce and industry will still increase the disparity. Your government must meet this state of things, or combinations will in process of time, undermine your system. What was the tribunitial power of Rome? It was instituted by the plebeians as a guard against the patricians. But was this a sufficient check? No-The only distinction which remained at Rome was, at last, between the rich and the poor. The gentleman from Connecticut forgets that the democratic body is already secure in a representation. -As to Connecticut, what were the little objects of their government before the revolution? Colonial concerns merely. They ought now to act on a more extended scale, and dare they do this? Dare they collect the taxes and requisitions of congress? Such a government may do well, if they do not tax, and this is precisely their situation. Mr. GERRY. It appears to me that the American people have the greatest aversion to monarchy, and the nearer our government approaches to it, the less chance have we for their approbation. Can gentlemen suppose that the reported system can be approved of by them? Demagogues are the great pests of our government, and have occasioned most of our distresses. If four years are insufficient, a future convention may lengthen the time. Mr. WILSON. The motion is now for nine years, and a triennial rotation. Every nation attends to its foreign intercourse-to support its commerce-to prevent foreign contempt, and to make war and peace. Our senate will be possessed of these powers, and therefore ought to be dignified and permanent. What is the reason that Great Britain does not enter into a commercial treaty with us? Because congress has not the power to enforce its observance. But give them those powers, and give them the stability proposed by the motion, and they will have more permanency than a monarchical government. The great objection of many is, that this duration would give birth to views inconsistent with the interests of the union. This can have no weight, if the triennial rotation is adopted; and this plan may possibly tend to conciliate the minds of the members of the convention on this subject, which have varied more than on any other question. The question was then put on Mr. Read's motion, and lost, 8 noes-3 ayes. The question on 5 years, and a biennial rotation, was carried-7 ayes-4 noes. New York in the minority. Mr. PINKNEY. I move that the clause for granting stipends, be stricken out. Question put-5 ayes-6 noes. On the amendment to the question, to receive a compensation-10 ayes-1 no. Judge ELSWORTH. I move that the words, out of the national treasury, be stricken out, and the words, the respective State legislatures, be inserted. If you ask the States what is reasonable, they will comply-but if you ask of them more than is necessary to form a good government, they will grant you nothing. Capt. DAYTON. The members should be paid from the general treasury, to make them independent. The question was put on the amendment and lost-5 ayes 6 noes. Mr. MASON. I make no motion, but throw out for the consideration of the convention, whether a person in the second branch ought not to be qualified as to property? The question was then put on the clause, and lost-5 ayes-6 noes. It was moved to strike out the clause, to be ineligible to any State office. Mr. MADISON. Congress heretofore depended on State interests-we are now going to pursue the same plan. Mr. WILSON. Congress has been ill managed, because particular States controlled the union. In this convention, if a proposal is made promising independency to the general government, before we have done with it, it is so modified and changed as to amount to nothing. In the present case, the States may say, although I appoint you for six years, yet if you are against the State, your table will be unprovided. Is this the way you are to erect an independent government? Mr. BUTLER. This second branch I consider as the aristocratic part of our government; and they must be controlled by the States, or they will be too independent. Mr. PINKNEY. The States and general government must stand together. On this plan have I acted throughout the whole of this business. I am therefore for expunging the clause. Suppose a member of this house was qualified to be a State judge, must the State be prevented from making the appointment? Question put for striking out-8 ayes-3 noes. The 5th resolve, that each house have the right of originating bills, was taken into consideration, and agreed to. Adjourned till to-morrow morning.